The Son Volt vehicle

[Lawrence Fan]

He did record on his own label.

[garrism1]

I wouldn't say its a little arrogent, I'd say it is tremendously arrogent. He should reform or record on his own label. Maybe he still records with Son Volt because he doesn't want to give some material under a certain contract. I know many Jazz muscians in the day gave writing credits to their wife so record companies could not see any of their share of royalties.

[Volthead]

I've said this all before...but I couldn't pass up an opportunity to say it all again.

I truly believe that Jay Farrar is one of the greatest songwriters and "point" men ever.

But to "replace" Mike, Dave, and Jim is just not possible. If you've ever met these guys, you would understand how their personalities get into the SV songs. They are just great, unique guys and tremendously talented musicians.

I'm not upset at anyone that the "reunion" didn't work out...but calling it "Son Volt" is just absurd. It's like calling your new boat your old girlfriends name...it just ain't right brother. No one plays like those three guys did...and even though they may have not been primary songwriters, you still HEAR them (literally and figuratively) in every SV songs. SV has a personality of its own...that can't be immitated or replaced.

I'll be happy to go see "Jay's new group"...be they whatever Jay calls them...but it'll never be Son Volt to me. Not without Mike, Jim, and Dave backing him...not ever. Those guys are ENTIRELY Son Volt to me. I would watch those guys just play and FEEL SV in my guts. SV wouldn't be the same without Jay nor will it ever be the same without Jim, Dave, and Mike. Period.

[gb68]

That's an interesting perspective, Tiny Elvis.
I've seen that happen with songs I've brought to bands, as well. For me, the ideal scenario is to surround myself with musicians who are good enough to just follow what I'm doing so I can concentrate on playing and singing. Sometimes I get arrangement ideas, and sometimes other people do. When everyone feels that they have contributed something to the performance or the recording, it makes it more fun, and it means that the project is something everyone can feel somewhat vested in.

I think it's interesting to see how you talk about songs being fully developed and matured once the other players have had their input. While I know what you mean, I also feel assured that I can go out and play my songs on a solo gig, just myself and my 12-string, and make enough of a racket to get my material over. I'm not saying that working with other musicians isn't important or artisically satisfying, I'm just saying that, from my perspective, I am usually bringing a complete work to a rehearsal, and that the changes that take place are more along the lines of tweaking and fleshing out a potential arrangement of the finished composition. I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right. I don't think our perspectives are really all that different. It's just a matter of degree, perhaps. Maybe you've had particularly inspired collaborators, or that I'm more likely to try to change an arrangement that doesn't sound like what I had first imagined. I just think it's interesting to see how different people work and the ways songwriters think about what they do.

Thank you for your kind words. I know for a fact that I'm not the most eloquent person around. I'm just trying to show my support for more online discussion of issues in aesthetics as they apply to the current world of the starmaker machinery behind the popular song.

Keep rockin' on, my friend.

[TinyElvis]

..I'm interested to see what other people have to say.

What I have to say is.. your post are too eloquently worded for most of us on the board to intelligently reply to.

As a long time muscian, band member, songwriter, etc.. I never feel a song is full developed by a single member of a 'vehicle'. In my opinion, I have written some pretty damn good songs in my time. The best ones never fully matured until everyone had their contribution. A guitar melody, a bass line or even a simple drum roll (no offense drummers) could inspire me to take the song in a new (often better) direction. Why? Because it was inspired. It was true collaboration. Not four guys sitting down trying to write a song together, but one person with an idea that grew from the direct (and sometimes indirect) inspiration of others.

A good song writes itself.

E

[gb68]

I almost said "flautist," but I wasn't sure on the spelling and I wasn't sure it was even the correct term. A sign, perhaps, that the word is indeed on its proverbial deathbed. I knew I was safe with "flute player."

I intended for my post to be a response to the conversation between Tiny Elvis and Hank Snow, but while I was writing my post, five others got in and the direction of this thread got uncomfortably strange. Clearly, when I say "It's kind of interesting to see where this is going," I'm not talking about how the discussion had turned to the subject of inflatable sex toys. Though I'm certainly no one to say what consenting adults should or should not do on their own time. Just remember that most blow-up dolls are not considered suitable as flotation devices in either lakes or swimming pools, so please do not use one in an attempt to rescue a drowning swimmer. Just about any sporting goods store will have what you need.

I just thought it was interesting to see how one point of view was expressed in terms of the vocals, the instrumentation and the production, which are all part of the presentation and performance aspects of music, and that the other focused on the quality of the written material. I think it relates to the other debate on this thread: is a band (or should a band ideally be) a "three musketeers" all-for-one-and-one-for-all kind of outfit, or is it more of a business venture? (Don't think that by "business venture" I mean to say it's all a cold, heartless exercise in generating revenue. Conflicts between engineers over product design can be every bit as passionate as conflicts between musicians over band arrangements. Believe me; I've seen both.)

I'll say again that the term "sideman" is not, from most musicians' perspective, a derogatory term any more than "assistant engineer" is a derogatory term. It's merely a job description. The only time it could be construed as being insulting is if you are more than just an assistant. That seems to be where some disagreement lies. To what degree is any one member contributing to the composition of the group's material, and to what degree is he contributing to the performance of that material? If one is thought to be more important than the other, what effect does that have on the relationships between band members? on the relationship between the performers and their audience? on the music itself?

What we're talking about here is that tension between aesthetics and interpersonal relationships, between the artist's ideal vision and the practical trade-offs inherent in the attempt to realize that vision. Paul McCartney functioned in a supporting role when he played bass on John Lennon's songs, but no one (except maybe Yoko Ono) suggested that he was John Lennon's sideman. I don't think Jim Boquist would claim to have had similar standing in Son Volt. But that does not make his contribution to Son Volt's sound insignificant by any means. To my ears, his harmony vocals blended beautifully with Farrar's and his elegant bass lines dovetailed very nicely with Mike Heidorn's drum parts. But does that mean that the group's leader should make practical bread-on-the-table sacrifices in order to strive for an aesthetic ideal? As it is, Andrew Duplantis got the call, and while I know he will not sound like Jim Boquist, I'm sure he will do his professional best and probably have a good time doing it, too.

When I was younger, I thought, "Man, I'm never going to work for the Establishment and be some fucking corporate paper-pusher." Once you've seen rock 'n' roll from both sides, as a player and as a fan, you realize that the perspective of the fan is almost guaranteed to be the opposite of the perspective of the player, and that rock 'n' roll is, after all, a job with its good days and bad days like any other gig. But no matter what job it is, 80 or so per cent of how much you enjoy it is the people you work with and the attitude you bring to it. That, I think I can safely say, is universal.

I'm interested to see what other people have to say.

[Long Slow Fade]

This was a great, original idea for a thread.

[Sticky]

If Jay Farrar had instead assembled Son Volt as a quartet comprised of himself, a cellist, a pianist and a flute player, for example, they would no doubt still have played all the same songs.

A flautist. Not trying to nit pick, but I always thought it was a cool word, even though it's about dead.

Chickamauga on a cello would still rock.

cheers

[gb68]

It's kind of interesting to see where this is going. One of the issues I think I see being debated here is the relative importance of composition versus performance in determining the value of music.

There are those who might want to say that the performance of music is more important, since a composition that is not performed remains just an idea in the composer's head or notebook. Conversely, there are those who would suggest that it is the composition of music that is more important, arguing that without compositions, the performer has nothing to present to an audience.

In the world of classical music where writers write, singers sing and instrumentalists play instruments, those roles are clearly defined and its rare to see anyone excel in more than one of those disciplines. Perhaps because of that, whether the composed elements of a piece are more important or whether a performer's interpretation is to be more important depends in large part on the piece itself. How much free reign the composer allows the performer depends on what he includes in the score and what he intentionally leaves out. What liberties performers take with the score depends on any number of factors, primarily (one would hope) how they think their interpretation will be received by an audience.

In folk and popular styles, the disctinctions between composition and performance are not always so clear. Often, when a band is lead by a singer-songwriter, the leader will play a song for the rest of the band on the guitar or piano, and the band will then collectively hash out an arrangement for the song in rehearsal. The arrangement is considered "informal" because it is unscripted. If there is no score but there is a recording, as is the case with most folk and popular music, then the recording serves as the record of the arrangement.

If Jay Farrar had instead assembled Son Volt as a quartet comprised of himself, a cellist, a pianist and a flute player, for example, they would no doubt still have played all the same songs. There is equally little doubt that the recordings of those songs would sound very different from what we now have. Whether those arrangements would be better or worse is an evaluation that would be entirely subjective. What that type of presentation would have done in objective terms is that he would have played those songs in different venues, had them released by a different label, and he probably would have been playing them to a somewhat different audience. That, I think, is the crux of the issue. Compositions give voice to what a composer wants to say. Arrangements and instrumentation help to define the audience that eventually hears the composer's work.

[dEvRoNiKa]

maybe a Jay Farrar blow-up doll for the ladies?

Whoa. Creepy.

And by that, of course I mean, SOLD!!

[TinyElvis]

Promotion for the new stuff? Jeez - I certainly hope not.

Well, you know – I’d heard all this noise about a “Son Volt Vehicle”, so I had to find out what everyone was talking about.

time to kill + obnoxious mood = tragically bad photoshop fun.

Promotional items are a good idea.. maybe a Jay Farrar blow-up doll for the ladies? It rarely smiles and mumbles "thanks a lot" afterwards.

[grainpulp]

I was thinking, ya know.... a cool array of Son Volt collectibles in which their name is imprinted on various objects and..... erhm...

[dEvRoNiKa]

Promotion for the new stuff? Jeez - I certainly hope not.

Well, you know – I’d heard all this noise about a “Son Volt Vehicle”, so I had to find out what everyone was talking about.

time to kill + obnoxious mood = tragically bad photoshop fun.

[grainpulp]

Are these going to be promotional pieces for the new album?

[dEvRoNiKa]